Game changer

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Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
I recently purchased a Samsung Gear VR immersive headset.  Built in conjunction with Oculus (using their design and software standards), the Gear VR is a virtual reality viewer, which let's the user walk through a virtual castle, fly along side galloping wild horses, etc.  The headset comes with a number of kinds of content . . . movie trailers, film and animation shorts, games, etc. Most of those are in 3D.  A head-mount viewer is perfect for 3D since there are no need for filters or glasses, which give some people a headache. With a VR viewer the right eye is shown one image and the other is shown a (slightly) different image, which is essentially how your eyes work. 
The Gear VR also comes with some 360 panos and 360 pano video. When you are wearing the VR headset you view the 360 content by moving your head to where you want to look, meaning you have to turn your head and body to look at the entire horizontal portion of the image/video, and you must tip your head up or down to see the rest (or moving on X and Y axis at the same time. In other words, it is exactly how you would look around somewhere in the real world.
The 3D content is simply amazing.  You actually feel your stomach drop when you "ride" a roller coaster.
The one truly glaring problem was that all the 360 photos (showing amazing sights from all around the world) were only 2D. While they were nice, they were flat. I could not help but see the opportunities missed by the photographers. Obviously, for many of the panos, they traveled to the ends of the earth to get these shots and they only shot 2D, completely missing out on creating content for an entirely new medium. The 3D 360 Video was amazing where you were up on stage in the middle of Cirq d Soile, or flying down a fiord only to look behind you to see a thundering waterfall. Awesome.
In addition to the Samsung Gear VR out on the market, electronic device maker Razer is also introducing a VR headset. Oculus itself will finally be offering its consumer VR viewer this year as well.  More units are coming. Over the next few years, demand for 3D panos will go through the roof (compared to the market demand now).
What I'm saying -- IMHO -- is that while there will always be those who prefer or generally enjoy 2D panos, the future will belong to 3D panos.

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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Can you explain further about how you would crete 3D pans?

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 7:48 AM, mark sroufe [hidden email]
[PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> I recently purchased a Samsung Gear VR immersive headset.  Built in
> conjunction with Oculus (using their design and software standards), the
> Gear VR is a virtual reality viewer, which let's the user walk through a
> virtual castle, fly along side galloping wild horses, etc.  The headset
> comes with a number of kinds of content . . . movie trailers, film and
> animation shorts, games, etc. Most of those are in 3D.  A head-mount viewer
> is perfect for 3D since there are no need for filters or glasses, which
> give some people a headache. With a VR viewer the right eye is shown one
> image and the other is shown a (slightly) different image, which is
> essentially how your eyes work.
>
> The Gear VR also comes with some 360 panos and 360 pano video. When you
> are wearing the VR headset you view the 360 content by moving your head to
> where you want to look, meaning you have to turn your head and body to look
> at the entire horizontal portion of the image/video, and you must tip your
> head up or down to see the rest (or moving on X and Y axis at the same
> time. In other words, it is exactly how you would look around somewhere in
> the real world.
>
> The 3D content is simply amazing.  You actually feel your stomach drop
> when you "ride" a roller coaster.
>
> The one truly glaring problem was that all the 360 photos (showing amazing
> sights from all around the world) were only 2D. While they were nice, they
> were flat. I could not help but see the opportunities missed by the
> photographers. Obviously, for many of the panos, they traveled to the ends
> of the earth to get these shots and they only shot 2D, completely missing
> out on creating content for an entirely new medium. The 3D 360 Video was
> amazing where you were up on stage in the middle of Cirq d Soile, or flying
> down a fiord only to look behind you to see a thundering waterfall. Awesome.
>
> In addition to the Samsung Gear VR out on the market, electronic device
> maker Razer is also introducing a VR headset. Oculus itself will finally be
> offering its consumer VR viewer this year as well.  More units are coming.
> Over the next few years, demand for 3D panos will go through the roof
> (compared to the market demand now).
>
> What I'm saying -- IMHO -- is that while there will always be those who
> prefer or generally enjoy 2D panos, the future will belong to 3D panos.
>
>  
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Am 11.01.2015 um 21:01 schrieb Briar Bentley:

> Can you explain further about how you would crete 3D pans?

Here is a tutorial by Wim Koornneef, who pioneered the technique:

http://tinyurl.com/3238kxt

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Thank you Erik for that detailed response.

In order to view 3D pans  is there no choice but to have glasses, a headset
or similar? (Clearly I am not familiar with 3D!)
I am trying to imagine its implementation in landscape images, real estate
or tourism which are my main income streams.



On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Erik Krause [hidden email]
[PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 11.01.2015 um 21:01 schrieb Briar Bentley:
>
> > Can you explain further about how you would crete 3D pans?
>
> Here is a tutorial by Wim Koornneef, who pioneered the technique:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3238kxt
>
> --
> Erik Krause
> http://www.erik-krause.de
>  
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Am 11.01.2015 um 21:41 schrieb Briar Bentley:

> In order to view 3D pans  is there no choice but to have glasses, a headset
> or similar? (Clearly I am not familiar with 3D!)

It seems so. You need to provide two different images to both eyes. The
only other possibility is wiggle stereoscopy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggle_stereoscopy
But I doubt there is a viewer for spherical panoramas which does this.

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
I wonder if another path would be panoramic video. I saw one a while back
taken from a helicopter where you could see all the way round but still be
travelling with the machine. That  was amazing, but beyond my comprehension
at the time. I would have thought would have greater application than
asking people to wear headsets.

I would be interested in debating this!

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Erik Krause [hidden email]
[PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Am 11.01.2015 um 21:41 schrieb Briar Bentley:
>
> > In order to view 3D pans is there no choice but to have glasses, a
> headset
> > or similar? (Clearly I am not familiar with 3D!)
>
> It seems so. You need to provide two different images to both eyes. The
> only other possibility is wiggle stereoscopy:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggle_stereoscopy
> But I doubt there is a viewer for spherical panoramas which does this.
>
> --
> Erik Krause
> http://www.erik-krause.de
>  
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
> On 12 Jan 2015, at 09:02, Briar Bentley [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wonder if another path would be panoramic video. [...] I would have thought would have greater application than asking people to wear headsets.

Pano videos are fascinating things – but using a headset makes the experience more immersive whether you're looking at panoramic stills or video. That's basically the whole point: shut out all visual distractions and make navigation work through head movements rather than mouse drags.

k
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
> On 11 Jan 2015, at 20:15, Erik Krause [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Here is a tutorial by Wim Koornneef, who pioneered the technique:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3238kxt

A great tutorial it is too!

The challenge of making 3D panoramas is actually rather big. It's simple enough to make a 3D (stereoscopy) photo if it's not interactive panoramic; just shoot a second image from a few inches to one side of the first. The problem comes when rotating to capture pano shots, as you simply cannot rotate two separate viewpoints on a single no-parallax point.

Shooting a pano from one spot and then again from the second spot inches to the side will make a stereo pano that works fine for straight ahead, is totally flat when looking 90 degrees to either side, and feels reversed when looking behind. Shooting with two cameras fixed side by side and rotating both as one will avoid that, but you'll be whole inches off the NPP. We typically talk about millimeter-level NPP adjustments as being fairly big.

Wim's fisheye slice method is very clever; it is the only reasonably workable solution I've heard of. It provides a measure of offset to encourage a feeling of stereo depth in the final product, but the result isn't massively offset and it doesn't require shooting two separate panos. The problem this has is that it requires a few dozen shots at least to produce what I normally make with just three, so it's only really suitable for very static scenes.

I have been experimenting with my iPhone and Google Cardboard. (I'm not allowed to buy the Oculus Rift yet! :) I've made a basic two-up web display of a number of panos, with accellerometer support so head movements are used for looking around. I've noticed that many people think that they're looking at actual 3D panoramas – not just the terminology mistake, they actually feel they're seeing 3D depth. But of course these are regular panos that are simply shown as a pair and viewed through a simple stereo headset viewer held to the face.

k
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
The only "Glasses-Free" method of viewing any form of 3D content that I've played with is a glasses-free tablet or phone.  These utilize a "parallax barrier" close to the screen in order to send different images to each eye.  This approach hasn't been perfected yet, though devices will be on the market soon that use eye tracking to continuously adjust the parallax barrier, making the 3D image clear no matter how you view the screen.

Sent from my iPad
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panoramic video (was: Game changer)

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
Am 12.01.2015 um 10:02 schrieb Briar Bentley:
> I wonder if another path would be panoramic video. I saw one a while back
> taken from a helicopter where you could see all the way round but still be
> travelling with the machine. That  was amazing, but beyond my comprehension
> at the time.

Most of the time 6 gopro hero cameras are used together in a rig. There
are two major suppliers: http://freedom360.us/ and http://www.360heros.com/

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
About one year ago I made a couple 3D pans using Wim Koorneef technique.
I was a little be skeptical about to make stereo pano using single
camera, but result was great.
First, I made anagliphic 3D panoramas:

http://www.arbitphoto.com/3D_pano_03262014/tour.html
http://www.arbitphoto.com/MPS_3D/tour.html

Now KRPano has support for Stereoscopic 3D panoramas:

http://krpano.com/stereo3d/#top

I re-process one of my 3D pans to be viewed on VR devices:

Google cardboard or similar -
http://www.arbitphoto.com/VR_Gallery/VR_2015_01.html
VR immersive headset ( like Oculus ) -
http://www.arbitphoto.com/VR_Gallery/VR_2015_01_rift.html
3D-TV or 3D-Beamer in 3D-SBS-mode
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB_3D-TV#Side_by_side>-
http://www.arbitphoto.com/VR_Gallery/VR_2015_01_sbs3d.html

I don't have all of this devices, so feedback will be great.
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
In principle you are right, but it IS possible to stitch panoramas taken with two cameras side-by-side on either side of the true NPP. The trick is to take many frames--far more than needed for Wim's one camera approach--and take only a very narrow slice of each frame when building the final panorama. That way, the misalignment between adjacent slices is too small to notice. Typically, the examples I have seen use the video capabilities of the DSLR rather than still frames. This used to mean a totally unacceptable sacrifice of resolution, but with 4HD becoming a reality at affordable prices it is worth revisiting this approach. It has the advantage that subjects with some movement in them can be shown, provided it is not too near the cameras. You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you know where to look.

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 12, 2015, at 7:13 PM, Keith Martin [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> On 11 Jan 2015, at 20:15, Erik Krause [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Here is a tutorial by Wim Koornneef, who pioneered the technique:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/3238kxt
>
> A great tutorial it is too!
>
> The challenge of making 3D panoramas is actually rather big. It's simple enough to make a 3D (stereoscopy) photo if it's not interactive panoramic; just shoot a second image from a few inches to one side of the first. The problem comes when rotating to capture pano shots, as you simply cannot rotate two separate viewpoints on a single no-parallax point.
>
> Shooting a pano from one spot and then again from the second spot inches to the side will make a stereo pano that works fine for straight ahead, is totally flat when looking 90 degrees to either side, and feels reversed when looking behind. Shooting with two cameras fixed side by side and rotating both as one will avoid that, but you'll be whole inches off the NPP. We typically talk about millimeter-level NPP adjustments as being fairly big.
>
> Wim's fisheye slice method is very clever; it is the only reasonably workable solution I've heard of. It provides a measure of offset to encourage a feeling of stereo depth in the final product, but the result isn't massively offset and it doesn't require shooting two separate panos. The problem this has is that it requires a few dozen shots at least to produce what I normally make with just three, so it's only really suitable for very static scenes.
>
> I have been experimenting with my iPhone and Google Cardboard. (I'm not allowed to buy the Oculus Rift yet! :) I've made a basic two-up web display of a number of panos, with accellerometer support so head movements are used for looking around. I've noticed that many people think that they're looking at actual 3D panoramas – not just the terminology mistake, they actually feel they're seeing 3D depth. But of course these are regular panos that are simply shown as a pair and viewed through a simple stereo headset viewer held to the face.
>
> k
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Keith Martin <[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Roger D Williams [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
>  You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you know where to look.

Could you save the group some trouble, and provide a reference
or links?

  BugBear

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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
Roger D Williams [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
>> You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you
>> know where to look.

paul womack [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
> Could you save the group some trouble, and provide a reference or
> links?

Yes please. :)
I'm still slightly skeptical, largely just considering the kind of
panoramas I prefer shooting: very busy, dynamic environments where
there's movement and change everywhere. But from a broader perspective
this does sound very interesting!

k
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
Sorry, I do know it's out there but if I had known where I would have shared the information.

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 13, 2015, at 5:55 PM, paul womack [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Roger D Williams [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
>> You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you know where to look.
>
> Could you save the group some trouble, and provide a reference
> or links?
>
>  BugBear
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: paul womack <[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
I'm sorry, but environments of the kind you like are not going to be suitable for this method unless the dynamics and busyness are taking place some way away. Discos are counter indicated!

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 13, 2015, at 8:11 PM, 'Keith Martin' [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Roger D Williams [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
>>> You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you
>>> know where to look.
>
> paul womack [hidden email] [PanoToolsNG] wrote:
>> Could you save the group some trouble, and provide a reference or
>> links?
>
> Yes please. :)
> I'm still slightly skeptical, largely just considering the kind of
> panoramas I prefer shooting: very busy, dynamic environments where
> there's movement and change everywhere. But from a broader perspective
> this does sound very interesting!
>
> k
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Keith Martin" <[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
On 13 Jan 2015, at 11:22, Roger D Williams [hidden email]
[PanoToolsNG] wrote:

> Discos are counter indicated!

Heehee :)

k
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
On 13 Jan 2015, at 7:04, Roger D Williams [hidden email]
[PanoToolsNG] wrote:

> The trick is to take many frames--far more than needed for Wim's one
> camera approach--and take only a very narrow slice of each frame when
> building the final panorama.

How many slices are we talking about here? The process is not suitable
for raves or street demos, but I must admit those aren't the *only*
kinds of thing I shoot... ;)


> Typically, the examples I have seen use the video capabilities of the
> DSLR rather than still frames.

Do you think that's largely because of the overall quantity of data that
would be involved? Full HD is just 2 megapixels, which is ludicrous for
showing full-screen panos on modern screens. 4K is much better by
comparison, but it's still only around 8 megapixels – not my kind of
wonderful. Oh boy, I seem to be talking myself into handling gigapixel
levels of data. :-/

k
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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
In reply to this post by PanoTools NG mailing list
Am 13.01.2015 um 09:55 schrieb paul womack:
>> >  You do need special image-slicing software but it's out there if you know where to look.
> Could you save the group some trouble, and provide a reference
> or links?

Wouldn't it suffice to use a narrow crop in PTGui?

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de


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Re: Game changer

PanoTools NG mailing list
You can do busy 360 stereo panoramas -- here is one I shot yesterday  (anaglyph) -- https://www.dropbox.com/s/53fhezqkq1vjd2i/cubichouseana360.JPG https://www.dropbox.com/s/53fhezqkq1vjd2i/cubichouseana360.JPG?dl=0
 or SBS for HMDs etc
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/latoumqnhyaw6br/lpano1sbs3.jpg https://www.dropbox.com/s/latoumqnhyaw6br/lpano1sbs3.jpg?dl=0
 

 it uses the same methods I write about on stereopanoramas.com/blog ...
 .. I will write a more up to date tutorial shortly (for Oculus forums in Stereoscopic 3d section)
 

 it is with two Gopro 3+ Black with modified full circle fisheye lenses spinning fast at a 5 sec rotation, at 2560 by 1440 resolution for a panorama size of 4000 by 2000 -- with Dual Hero System back for stereo sync and 13.5 cm interaxial (I like hyperstereo)
 

 Peter  Murphy
12