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HTML5 - the true tragedy

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HTML5 - the true tragedy

Trausti Hraunfjord
http://www.apple.com/html5/

If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link, since it won't work on any other browser.  That's how good HTML5 really is today.

Anyways, should you happen to have Safari, you can see an example of object movie.  Very basic, very basic and very basic.... did I say basic?

And you can also see an example of a spherical panorama that looks and feels like something from last century.

This is HTML5 showcase site... and everything in it happens to be a BAD imitation of what is possible to do with Flash.  They have obviously worked hard towards making things look as good as possible, in order to "impress" people, but the results are less than mediocre.

It's good that HTML4 will be replaced by HTML5... after 13 or 14 years... with only 3 updates in that timeframe... but this also proves that Flash will be alive and well for many years to come, while HTML5 will just stay in one place, and not evolve at all... for the next decade.

That is what history proves to us all.

Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash capabilities?  That would be in the spirit of Apple, so how wrong could that be?

Just thinking out loud.

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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Trausti Hraunfjord
And then... on testing the link, I got nothing at all.  Just a white page on
FF and Chrome on my PC and laptop... and "page not found" on the iMac.

Then it got back online a few minutes later.

Looks as if HTML5 is not the new messiah of the internet... but just as
faulty and bad... if not worse than what we already have. :)

No surprise if you ask me.

Trausti


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Trausti Hraunfjord
These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient.

The above is a quote from the Apple site.  IF the examples are the best
possible scenarios done with HTML5, then it is a real pitty. The only
conclusion I can come to, is that they wanted a panorama to work in a
similar way as QTVR... and they even failed at matching that sub-standard of
today.

But worry not... this will be the standard for the next 13 or so years.  No
matter how open source it is... it's not going to be improved just because
you find a flaw or a lacking feature.  It's going to stay the way it is
until HTML6 comes out in 2023.

Welcome to the free open source standards.

Trausti


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Pat Swovelin-3
In reply to this post by Trausti Hraunfjord
On 6-3-2010 9:46 PM, blueslander's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
typed ...:
> http://www.apple.com/html5/
>
> If you are not running on Safari,

It doesn't work in Safari running in Win 7 Ultimate x64.  The VR section
tells me:

.            This demo requires a browser that supports CSS 3D transforms.
.            To view this demo, you'll need Safari on Mac OS X Snow
Leopard, Safari on iPhone OS, or the latest WebKit Nightly Build.

In Safari running in XP Pro the page can't be found and it always
changes the "html" in the URL to uppecase.

So let me get this straight, I have to buy a Mac or an iPhone to use the
new standard?  Doesn't seem like much of a "standard" to me ... unless
I've got Apple hardware.

> don't bother clicking the link, since it won't work on any other
> browser. That's how good HTML5 really is today.
>
> Anyways, should you happen to have Safari, you can see an example of
> object movie. Very basic, very basic and very basic.... did I say basic?
>
> And you can also see an example of a spherical panorama that looks and
> feels like something from last century.
>
> This is HTML5 showcase site... and everything in it happens to be a
> BAD imitation of what is possible to do with Flash. They have
> obviously worked hard towards making things look as good as possible,
> in order to "impress" people, but the results are less than mediocre.
>
> It's good that HTML4 will be replaced by HTML5... after 13 or 14
> years... with only 3 updates in that timeframe... but this also proves
> that Flash will be alive and well for many years to come, while HTML5
> will just stay in one place, and not evolve at all... for the next decade.
>
> That is what history proves to us all.
>
> Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash
> capabilities? That would be in the spirit of Apple, so how wrong could
> that be?
>
> Just thinking out loud.



Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Raphaël Jacquot
In reply to this post by Trausti Hraunfjord
On 06/04/2010 06:46 AM, blueslander wrote:
> http://www.apple.com/html5/
 > If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link

the fact that apple coded their demo to only work with safari, limiting
themselves to the features they decided on, after doing their 800 pound
gorilla to prevent a standard video Codec to be decided on in the spec
(theora, dirac, whatever) does not show the possibilities that html5
entails.

> This is HTML5 showcase site...

This is *APPLE*'s showcase site, that specifically tests for "is the
user using safari or whatever else"...

> Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash capabilities?

That would be like wirlpool suing someong for inventing yet another
version of the fridge or the washing machine...
get real

if http://smokescreen.us/ can write a pretty good flash player in
Javascript, Javascript is hence superior to flash player !

so, you sir are a troll of the worst type spewing pro-flash slander...
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Re: HTML5 - a promising future

Willy Kaemena
In reply to this post by Trausti Hraunfjord

On Jun 4, 2010, at 6:46, blueslander wrote:

> http://www.apple.com/html5/
>
>
>

That works  at the moment only on Safari running on Mac !


This looks beautiful and very promising !  and NOW we know why Apple dropped the support for QTVR !!  The provided VR on that site  however is  not very nice, we know already from HTML5 on iPhone and iPad that is can be done much better and smoother.



Willy



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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Ian Wood-2
In reply to this post by Trausti Hraunfjord

On 4 Jun 2010, at 05:46, blueslander wrote:

> That's how good HTML5 really is today.

You sound surprised. Why?

Anyway, in web developer circles Apple's HTML5 'showcase' is regarded  
as a joke, try http://html5demos.com/ for more concrete examples of  
some of HTML5's features along with a list of which browsers they  
currently work in.

Then take a look at Snow Stack:
http://www.satine.org/archives/2009/07/11/snow-stack-is-here/

Ian

P.S. If you're finding that some of the examples aren't working  
properly even in Safari, download one of the nightly builds and try  
that instead.
http://nightly.webkit.org/
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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

DemonDuck
In reply to this post by Raphaël Jacquot
hehehe...Smokescreen uses Flash to show their demos...hehehee......

oh and second point. -- what ever viewer that "uses JavaScript" to
show a spherical pano from cube faces or equis will most likely be
using a JavaScript interface to an underlaying OpenGL native lib.

So you won't really be "using JavaScript"  You will be using OpenGL ES.

Raphaël Jacquot wrote:

> On 06/04/2010 06:46 AM, blueslander wrote:
>> http://www.apple.com/html5/
>  > If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link
>
> the fact that apple coded their demo to only work with safari, limiting
> themselves to the features they decided on, after doing their 800 pound
> gorilla to prevent a standard video Codec to be decided on in the spec
> (theora, dirac, whatever) does not show the possibilities that html5
> entails.
>
>> This is HTML5 showcase site...
>
> This is *APPLE*'s showcase site, that specifically tests for "is the
> user using safari or whatever else"...
>
>> Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash capabilities?
>
> That would be like wirlpool suing someong for inventing yet another
> version of the fridge or the washing machine...
> get real
>
> if http://smokescreen.us/ can write a pretty good flash player in
> Javascript, Javascript is hence superior to flash player !
>
> so, you sir are a troll of the worst type spewing pro-flash slander...
>
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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Raphaël Jacquot
On 06/04/2010 10:11 AM, Ken Warner wrote:
> hehehe...Smokescreen uses Flash to show their demos...hehehee......

erh, they demo flash / smokescreen on the same page to show that it
works as intended...

> oh and second point. -- what ever viewer that "uses JavaScript" to
> show a spherical pano from cube faces or equis will most likely be
> using a JavaScript interface to an underlaying OpenGL native lib.

well, duh, somehow you also have to access the graphics card, so you
also use the underlaying graphics hardware drivers...

> So you won't really be "using JavaScript"  You will be using OpenGL ES.

you're using a javascript interface to an openGL ES library...

hair splitter splits hair !
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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Ian Wood-2
In reply to this post by Raphaël Jacquot

On 4 Jun 2010, at 06:35, Raphaël Jacquot wrote:

> the fact that apple coded their demo to only work with safari,

Many of the examples use 3D CSS transforms. These are currently  
supported only in Webkit-based browsers. I'm not sure if the Windows  
version of Chrome supports 3D transforms, the Mac version doesn't.

Basically, 3D transforms work in Safari on OS X 10.6 and above, mobile  
Safari, or Windows & 10.5 if running one of the Webkit nightly builds.

> after doing their 800 pound gorilla to prevent a standard video  
> Codec to be decided on in the spec (theora, dirac, whatever)

That was (allegedly) Adobe not Apple, for what it's worth.

Ian
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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Ian Wood-2
Whoops, I forgot to include a link to what HTML5.CSS3 features are  
implemented in which browser!

http://html5readiness.com/

Ian
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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Fernando Costa Pinto
In reply to this post by Raphaël Jacquot
Dear Raphael ,

Can you please show any Spherical Tour (ST )made in javascript  that can
make 10 % of what flash present today ?
In a ST today you can see video , flyup ..,maps , audio, lots of interaction
 ..a lottt of new and amazing capabilities  coming very fast.. easy to do
..everybody use ..what else can one expect ?
When we don't have problems we create them ?  ..come on ..
Trausti is a major player in this "game" , thanks to him for making the ST a
better and better Media.
And thanks to for such a strong personality.

It is easy to call someone a troll *when one  example can not be shown.*.But
then the reverse applies

Talk is easy ..show is hard

Fernando
Salvador Bahia
Brazil

2010/6/4 Raphaël Jacquot <[hidden email]>

>
>
> On 06/04/2010 06:46 AM, blueslander wrote:
> > http://www.apple.com/html5/
> > If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link
>
> the fact that apple coded their demo to only work with safari, limiting
> themselves to the features they decided on, after doing their 800 pound
> gorilla to prevent a standard video Codec to be decided on in the spec
> (theora, dirac, whatever) does not show the possibilities that html5
> entails.
>
>
> > This is HTML5 showcase site...
>
> This is *APPLE*'s showcase site, that specifically tests for "is the
> user using safari or whatever else"...
>
>
> > Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash
> capabilities?
>
> That would be like wirlpool suing someong for inventing yet another
> version of the fridge or the washing machine...
> get real
>
> if http://smokescreen.us/ can write a pretty good flash player in
> Javascript, Javascript is hence superior to flash player !
>
> so, you sir are a troll of the worst type spewing pro-flash slander...
>
>  
>


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Bjørn K Nilssen
On 4 Jun 2010 at 9:50, Fernando Costa Pinto wrote:

> Dear Raphael ,
>
> Can you please show any Spherical Tour (ST )made in javascript  that can
> make 10 % of what flash present today ?
> In a ST today you can see video , flyup ..,maps , audio, lots of interaction
>  ..a lottt of new and amazing capabilities  coming very fast.. easy to do
> ..everybody use ..what else can one expect ?
> When we don't have problems we create them ?  ..come on ..
> Trausti is a major player in this "game" , thanks to him for making the ST a
> better and better Media.
> And thanks to for such a strong personality.

I agree wholeheartedly :)
And Tommy is also expanding the usefulness of Flash panoramas a lot :)
As you say, Flash panoramas is a lot more than just the ability to view a single equirect
interactively.
HTML5/CSS may well be a solution in the future, but it will take many years before it
gets anywhere close to the maturity of Flash players today. I actually was hoping for a
boycott of Apple/iPad, but it looks like lots of developers are bending backwards to
follow the whims of Jobs, and making mediocre solutions for those iGadgets to try to fll
the gap that appeared when Jobs cut the bridge :(  
It is quite common when building a new bridge over a gorge to keep the old bridge until
the new one is ready for traffic!

This really is a long step backwards, and it is a bit surprising, and very disappointing,
that so many developers seems to have followed Jobs on that step.
I guess Apple is where the money lies nowadays?

> It is easy to call someone a troll *when one  example can not be shown.*.But
> then the reverse applies
>
> Talk is easy ..show is hard
>
> Fernando
> Salvador Bahia
> Brazil
>
> 2010/6/4 Raphaël Jacquot <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> >
> > On 06/04/2010 06:46 AM, blueslander wrote:
> > > http://www.apple.com/html5/
> > > If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link
> >
> > the fact that apple coded their demo to only work with safari, limiting
> > themselves to the features they decided on, after doing their 800 pound
> > gorilla to prevent a standard video Codec to be decided on in the spec
> > (theora, dirac, whatever) does not show the possibilities that html5
> > entails.
> >
> >
> > > This is HTML5 showcase site...
> >
> > This is *APPLE*'s showcase site, that specifically tests for "is the
> > user using safari or whatever else"...
> >
> >
> > > Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash
> > capabilities?
> >
> > That would be like wirlpool suing someong for inventing yet another
> > version of the fridge or the washing machine...
> > get real
> >
> > if http://smokescreen.us/ can write a pretty good flash player in
> > Javascript, Javascript is hence superior to flash player !
> >
> > so, you sir are a troll of the worst type spewing pro-flash slander...

--
Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D



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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Roger Howard
In reply to this post by Pat Swovelin-3
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Pat Swovelin <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
> On 6-3-2010 9:46 PM, blueslander's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
> typed ...:
>
> > http://www.apple.com/html5/
> >
> > If you are not running on Safari,
>
> It doesn't work in Safari running in Win 7 Ultimate x64. The VR section
> tells me:
>
> . This demo requires a browser that supports CSS 3D transforms.
> . To view this demo, you'll need Safari on Mac OS X Snow
> Leopard, Safari on iPhone OS, or the latest WebKit Nightly Build.
>
> In Safari running in XP Pro the page can't be found and it always
> changes the "html" in the URL to uppecase.
>
> So let me get this straight, I have to buy a Mac or an iPhone to use the
> new standard? Doesn't seem like much of a "standard" to me ... unless
> I've got Apple hardware.
>

No, works in any recent nightly build of Webki, which is available for both
Windows and Mac OSX.

http://nightly.webkit.org/

The way I see this is a tech demo - mainly a way to say "I bet you didn't
know HTML could do this"... nowhere does it say it's better than Flash, or
that it's even ready for primetime.

-R


>


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Roger Howard
In reply to this post by DemonDuck
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Ken Warner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> hehehe...Smokescreen uses Flash to show their demos...hehehee......
>

No it doesn't. Smokescreen demos run in the browser, without Flash. They
show the same SWF running in the Flash Player on the same page, in order for
you to compare the same content in both players.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: HTML5 - a promising future

AYRTON - avi
In reply to this post by Willy Kaemena
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Willy Kaemena <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Jun 4, 2010, at 6:46, blueslander wrote:
>
> > http://www.apple.com/html5/
>
>
> That works  at the moment only on Safari running on Mac
> This looks beautiful and very promising !



Willy
I tought the same.
The future is close and knocking on the door. Let's wait to see new features
soon.

best
AYRTON



> and NOW we know why Apple dropped the support for QTVR !!  The provided VR
> on that site  however is  not very nice, we know already from HTML5 on
> iPhone and iPad that is can be done much better and smoother.
>
>
>
> Willy
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
>
>
>
>


--
------------
| A Y R |
| T O N |
------------
+ 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
+ 55 11 3717 5131 - SP
http://ayrton360.com
twitter.com/ayrton360


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Re: HTML5 - a promising future

Trausti Hraunfjord
What features would that be? Something that imitates what Flash already is
capable of visually... and has been for many years?

I say that, because that is seemingly the only thing going through people's
head: It will be able to mimic Flash behaviour, without Flash... and still
be poorer on features than Flash, and it won't be updated even once a
year... not even once every 4 years.... and when it is updated sometime in
the future, it will be with a single or a couple of issues.  People won´t be
getting any improvements worked into it, no matter how needed such
improvements might be.  THAT is open source for us all.

Of course there is a lot of good that comes with HTML5, I am not blind to
that at all, and I welcome it as a replacement for HTML4, that is so beyond
having gone obsolete years ago... HTML5 will probably open up new and better
ways for Flash to do things, taking huge steps of improvements. And other
software will no doubt benefit as well.

Where some people hope to see it as the Flash killer, I see it as an
improvement for everyone, but absolutely not as a replacement option for
Flash.  Not at all.

Trausti


On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:17 PM, AYRTON <[hidden email]> wrote:

Let's wait to see new features soon.

>
> best
> AYRTON
>
>


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Re: HTML5 - a promising future

Bjørn K Nilssen
In reply to this post by AYRTON - avi
On 4 Jun 2010 at 19:17, AYRTON wrote:


> > That works  at the moment only on Safari running on Mac
> > This looks beautiful and very promising !
>
>
>
> Willy
> I tought the same.
> The future is close and knocking on the door. Let's wait to see new features
> soon.

Sorry, but I can't see how you can be so optimistic about a future that may lie 5-10
years ahead?
Promising future? - yes, probably.
Close future? - hardly.

IMO it's like prohibiting all use of fossile-burning motors while we're waiting for new
non-polluting motors to be developed.
 
> best
> AYRTON
>
>
>
> > and NOW we know why Apple dropped the support for QTVR !!  The provided VR
> > on that site  however is  not very nice, we know already from HTML5 on
> > iPhone and iPad that is can be done much better and smoother.

--
Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D



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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Eric O'Brien-2
In reply to this post by Trausti Hraunfjord
If you are saying that standards committees rarely are sources of  
innovation, I would agree.

But, exactly because of that, neither do standards committees  
determine product features or the deployment schedule for those  
products.

I consider it fallacious to link the HTML5 standards timeline to the  
timeline of the development of products that may implement some or all  
of the (proposed) HTML5 standards.  The standards committees are not  
"gatekeepers."  A couple similar examples I can think of are standards  
for telephone modems and those for wi-fi.  As times began changing  
more quickly in the world of telephone modems, manufacturers designed,  
built, promoted and sold devices based on *draft* standards.  In the  
wireless arena, the same thing happened with 802.11n.

It most certainly is NOT the case that we will have to wait until  
"2022" [1] before we will see HTML5 features implemented in everyday  
browsers (not ones that are "special builds.")

If you look at <http://html5readiness.com/> (a very nice information  
graphic, by the way) or <http://caniuse.com/> from where the data  
originated, you can see that a number of HTML5 features are available  
*now* in various browsers.  Microsoft's product being the laggard  
(sigh).  I found it particularly interesting, in the first url, to  
click on the previous years and see how much as changed in two or  
three years.


Next.  Note that it is not *Flash* that allows us to build interactive  
panoramas, or to package together groups of panoramas into "tours."  
Flash is a foundation.  Without Pano2VR, or krpano or Flash Panorama  
Player (and others?) there would be few, if any, interactive panoramas  
deployed as Flash "movies."

Remember that when the iPad arrived, there were essentially *no*  
panoramas that could be viewed using it.  After weeks of presumably  
really hard work, Brian Greenstone <http://pangeasoft.net/pano/ 
pangeavr/> changed that.  No, this is not yet multi-pano "tour."  And  
yes, the holy grail of "author once, deploy everywhere" again recedes  
into the mist.  But you *can* view spherical panoramas interactively  
on an iPad or iPhone WITHOUT, yes without, using Flash.

Clearly, ugly though it might be, the "technology demonstration" at  
Apple's site shows that it *is* possible to display interactive  
panoramas using HTML5 "technology."

I don't consider it a valid criticism to complain that there isn't yet  
the equivalent of Pano2VR et al that will generate a lump of HTML5  
stuff rather than a lump of Flash stuff.  I don't know if it will be  
possible (and oh my, look at <http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/>!) for  
"HTML5 stuff" to present a final user experience that is on par with  
the final user experience you might be able to create using Flash  
tools.  However, what with Apple's stance on Flash, I'd be surprised  
if the authors of Pano2VR, krpano and so forth aren't investigating  
whether it can be done.

And if they are, dare I say that they would *not* be if it were not  
for the stance of Apple?  I think that Apple (Steve Jobs) has been  
motivated more by emotion than pragmatism regarding shutting out  
Flash, but recall that Apple has taken similar positions in the past.  
Remember floppy disks?  Apple did not "phase them out."  Instead, at  
one point, all new Apple computers simply did not *have* floppy  
drives!  At the time, there was a whole heck of a lot of squealing  
about this, if I recall correctly.  Slowly though, PC makers dropped  
floppy drives too.  Now, they pretty much don't exist at all.

I think it's possible that Apple's stance on Flash might possibly  
provide a similar "nudge" that might get an industry out of a rut.  
While I do like the analogy "don't pull down the old bridge until you  
finish the new one," I don't think it quite applies.  The old bridge  
(Flash) is still there.  It's just that, um... a "load limit" has been  
put in place.  That doesn't quite work, but I like it ;)  And the new  
bridge is far from finished:  the two main support cables are in  
place, but to get across you have to walk barefoot on a temporary bit  
of rope... neither four-footed animals nor wheeled vehicles can be  
accommodated yet.  (Hmm... probably placing excessive demands on  
analogy!)

That's all.

[1] The significance of the "2022" number that's been propagated would  
appear to be questionable.
See reference at <http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=2524 
 >

eo

On Jun 3, 2010, at 9:46 PM, blueslander wrote:

> http://www.apple.com/html5/
>
> If you are not running on Safari, don't bother clicking the link,  
> since it won't work on any other browser. That's how good HTML5  
> really is today.
>
> Anyways, should you happen to have Safari, you can see an example of  
> object movie. Very basic, very basic and very basic.... did I say  
> basic?
>
> And you can also see an example of a spherical panorama that looks  
> and feels like something from last century.
>
> This is HTML5 showcase site... and everything in it happens to be a  
> BAD imitation of what is possible to do with Flash. They have  
> obviously worked hard towards making things look as good as  
> possible, in order to "impress" people, but the results are less  
> than mediocre.
>
> It's good that HTML4 will be replaced by HTML5... after 13 or 14  
> years... with only 3 updates in that timeframe... but this also  
> proves that Flash will be alive and well for many years to come,  
> while HTML5 will just stay in one place, and not evolve at all...  
> for the next decade.
>
> That is what history proves to us all.
>
> Maybe Adobe should sue all those who try to imitate the Flash  
> capabilities? That would be in the spirit of Apple, so how wrong  
> could that be?
>
> Just thinking out loud.
>
>
>


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Re: HTML5 - the true tragedy

Pat Swovelin-3
On 6-4-2010 6:59 PM, Eric O'Brien's hamster got loose on the keyboard
and typed ...:
> And if they are, dare I say that they would *not* be if it were not
> for the stance of Apple? I think that Apple (Steve Jobs) has been
> motivated more by emotion than pragmatism regarding shutting out
> Flash, but recall that Apple has taken similar positions in the past.
> Remember floppy disks? Apple did not "phase them out." Instead, at
> one point, all new Apple computers simply did not *have* floppy
> drives! At the time, there was a whole heck of a lot of squealing
> about this, if I recall correctly. Slowly though, PC makers dropped
> floppy drives too. Now, they pretty much don't exist at all.

To carry your analogy further, then no USB connectors nor any connectors
for that matter, save an Apple-proprietary connector to connect to
iTunes, is where technology is headed.

What a giant *leap backwards*.




Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large


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