death match! click/drag vs. qtvr-style

[giant_klobasa_monster]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/


i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
"qtvr style" to "click and drag"

if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive
argument on the thread:


Roelof de Vries <https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>

I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by Google.
In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the standards
for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and inexperiences
user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style navigation.
They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when rotating the
image.

In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
navigate.
Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
navigation and want to stick to it.

Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.

As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
image.

In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.

Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.

It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
designer, this sounds strange to me...

My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....




Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
Jeffrey

[AYRTON - avi]

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Jeffrey Martin <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/
>
> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
> if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive
> argument on the thread:
>


BUT

Jeffrey, you should also say that :  the option with MORE votes was, and is
: *keep  QTVR-style*

Much more people still PREFER and voted for that,
including me   :-)

cheers

AYRTON

>
>
> Roelof de Vries <https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>
>
> I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by
> Google. In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the
> standards for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and
> inexperiences user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style
> navigation. They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when
> rotating the image.
>
> In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
> panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
> that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
> time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
> additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
> I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
> their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
> navigate.
> Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
> the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
> This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
> click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
> Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
> navigation and want to stick to it.
>
> Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
> through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
> 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
> you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
> average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
> a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
> the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
> at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
> Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
> like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
> image.
>
> In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
> break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
> for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
> the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
> user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.
>
> Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
> navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
> it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
> not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.
>
> It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
> Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
> that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
> designer, this sounds strange to me...
>
> My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
> menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
> Jeffrey
>
>
>
>
>

[DemonDuck]

I personally don't care to reduce my user interface actions to the lowest common denominator.

I think it's incumbent on experienced users to educate the inexperienced user to give them the same perspective on a proper and most useful method for interacting with 360 degree spherical panos.  It does nothing for the user community as a whole to debase years of experience and thought just to pander to the least experienced.

The few extra seconds it *may* take someone to become comfortable with what you call QTVR style interfaces are worth being spent on introducing people to 360 panos.  And it certainly won't take 10 minutes unless that specific user has never used a mouse before.  And how many people are there like that in the developed world?

Writing with a word processor on a screen is entirely different than writing longhand on paper.  Should word processor interfaces mimic longhand on paper?  How about when you select text or use the scroll bars to scroll a long page.  Those actions would be impractical using the Google map style action.  Those user actions are orthogonal to what happens on most panos today.  Which I think is also called Click-Drag because we don't need a literal name for something so familiar.  The Google Maps style is what I call image push and the current standard for panoramas is actually viewport drag.  You drag your viewport across the image rather than pushing the image to your viewport.

Viewport drag:  You are moving your head around a stationary and oriented World (like real life).

Image push: Your moving the World around your stationary head.

Sort of like the the dicodomy between the Copernicusian and Ptolemyic models of our solar system.  Geocentric vs. Heliocentric.

This discussion recycles at least once a year since I've been on this list.  I say, find your own way of doing things if you are uncomfortable with what thoughtful inventive people have agreed on by consensus.  Your choice of interface styles will attract those that agree with you.

And your mythical button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag' is simply misnamed.  Who among your novice users knows what QTVR means?  I do see the problem with naming these actions to differentiate them to an inexperienced user.  But it's not something I worry about because both are so familiar to me.  And how long does someone remain inexperienced?  A minute?  Two minutes?  I think this concern is overblown.

On 7/16/2012 6:04 AM, Jeffrey Martin wrote:

> https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/
>
>
> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
>
> if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive
> argument on the thread:
>
>
> Roelof de Vries<https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>
>
> I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by Google.
> In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the standards
> for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and inexperiences
> user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style navigation.
> They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when rotating the
> image.
>
> In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
> panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
> that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
> time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
> additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
> I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
> their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
> navigate.
> Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
> the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
> This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
> click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
> Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
> navigation and want to stick to it.
>
> Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
> through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
> 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
> you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
> average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
> a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
> the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
> at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
> Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
> like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
> image.
>
> In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
> break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
> for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
> the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
> user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.
>
> Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
> navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
> it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
> not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.
>
> It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
> Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
> that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
> designer, this sounds strange to me...
>
> My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
> menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
> Jeffrey
>

[jimbo]

Hey Jeff,
I just attempted to join the group so I could vote.. and make a comment.. which I wasn't able to do..  soon I hope..

jimbo
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jeffrey Martin
  To: panotoolsng
  Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:04 AM
  Subject: [PanoToolsNG] death match! click/drag vs. qtvr-style


   
  https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/ 



  i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from "qtvr style" to "click and drag"


  if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive argument on the thread:




  Roelof de Vries
   
  I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by Google. In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the standards for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and inexperiences user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style navigation. They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when rotating the image.

  In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
  I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to navigate.
  Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'. This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of navigation and want to stick to it.

  Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.

  As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work. Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the image.

  In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.

  Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality, not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.

  It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction designer, this sounds strange to me...

  My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....








  Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
  Jeffrey


   

 
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5134 - Release Date: 07/15/12

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

Simply put:

If we are to put on our "nanny state" shoes and protect users from learning
anything "new" (we really shouldn't do anything that forces people to use
their brains), I think we should take the FULL step and provide only flat
single shot images.  That way we won't be confusing anyone in any way or
form.  Most people on the planet know how to look at a still picture.

What other option is there in order to "meet people's lacking knowledge"
and go for the lowest standards?

Well, the other option is to continue providing the only logical way of
movement, that doesn't require 100+ click and drags in order to view a
single pano... only risking that the IQ of those who use it for the first
time, will be raised by a tiny nano-fraction of a one tenth of a single
point.

Trausti

[Philip Warner-2]

Ken,

Times are changing. When we learned how to control a 360 panorama it was on a desktop computer. The desktop is beginning to fade with the smaller & more convenient tablets taking over. I've seen all ages this year having to learn how to navigate using the qtvr-style and I saw first hand that the navigation was getting in the way of a good user experience.

I agree that using click-n-drag on a desktop is much like fingernails on a chalkboard, remember those? But the old school qtvr-style has to be learned where the click-n-drag method is natural to the latest generation of knuckle dragging users.

Phil


--- In [hidden email], Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:
>
> I personally don't care to reduce my user interface actions to the lowest common denominator.
>

[Yazan Sboul]

My preferred option would be to default with the google streetview method and for desktop/computer provide the qtvr option button  highlighted as "recommended"

To: [hidden email]
From: [hidden email]
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:18:26 +0000
Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: death match! click/drag vs. qtvr-style
















 



 


   
     
     
      Ken,



Times are changing. When we learned how to control a 360 panorama it was on a desktop computer. The desktop is beginning to fade with the smaller & more convenient tablets taking over. I've seen all ages this year having to learn how to navigate using the qtvr-style and I saw first hand that the navigation was getting in the way of a good user experience.



I agree that using click-n-drag on a desktop is much like fingernails on a chalkboard, remember those? But the old school qtvr-style has to be learned where the click-n-drag method is natural to the latest generation of knuckle dragging users.



Phil



--- In [hidden email], Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:

>

> I personally don't care to reduce my user interface actions to the lowest common denominator.

>





   
     

   
   






       

[fierodeval]

I think the "Click-n-Drag" style of Google Streeview requires some improvements. For example, it could be better to capture the mouse cursor and move the image when the cursor is not over the panorama. Or maybe, a repositioning of the mouse cursor in the edges of the panorama window, this way the cursor never reach the limits of the screen (like DevalVR with manual movement).

regards,
fiero




--- In [hidden email], Jeffrey Martin <panoramas@...> wrote:

>
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/
>
>
> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
>
> if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive
> argument on the thread:
>
>
> Roelof de Vries <https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>
>
> I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by Google.
> In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the standards
> for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and inexperiences
> user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style navigation.
> They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when rotating the
> image.
>
> In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
> panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
> that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
> time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
> additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
> I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
> their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
> navigate.
> Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
> the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
> This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
> click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
> Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
> navigation and want to stick to it.
>
> Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
> through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
> 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
> you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
> average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
> a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
> the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
> at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
> Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
> like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
> image.
>
> In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
> break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
> for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
> the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
> user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.
>
> Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
> navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
> it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
> not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.
>
> It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
> Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
> that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
> designer, this sounds strange to me...
>
> My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
> menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
> Jeffrey
>

[DemonDuck]

No, the "..times they are not a changin'..."  People are just forgetting hard learned lessons like the advantage of non-glare screens; the mantra that you must never put your fingers on the screen; that key boards are the most efficient data entry device; that mice are the most efficient pointing device.

You want to throw away all the thought and experience that wisdom came from that's up to you.  I'll stick with what has been demonstrated to make sense and not that which is a marketing device.

If you want an objective measure of which is better -- move the viewport or move the world -- just count the motions necessary to pan the equator of a 360 image.  And for those who must rub their chocolate, peanut butter fingers on a shiny screen, viewport moving can still be done even with chocolate, peanut butter fingers and it will leave less to lick off your screen.

On 7/16/2012 11:27 AM, Yazan Sboul wrote:
>
> My preferred option would be to default with the google streetview method and for desktop/computer provide the qtvr option button  highlighted as "recommended"
>

[Bruno Postle]

On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 15:04 +0200, Jeffrey S. Martin wrote:
>
> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"

Since I don't have Flash installed or have a computer capable of
displaying html5 panoramas, I only occasionally encounter immersive
panoramas.

So despite learning the 'qtvr way' many years ago, each time I try
and use one, I drag the image and the thing spins off in the
opposite direction.  The 'qtvr way' fails the principle of least
surprise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

So for me click-and-hold doesn't work, I have the same problem with
Acrobat reader and the Control Points tab in Hugin, which also zip
off in the wrong direction every time I try and pan.

--
Bruno

[DemonDuck]

Really, you can't figure it out even though you can describe exactly what's happening?  I find that amusing :-)



On 7/16/2012 1:33 PM, Bruno Postle wrote:

> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 15:04 +0200, Jeffrey S. Martin wrote:
>>
>> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
>> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
>
> Since I don't have Flash installed or have a computer capable of
> displaying html5 panoramas, I only occasionally encounter immersive
> panoramas.
>
> So despite learning the 'qtvr way' many years ago, each time I try
> and use one, I drag the image and the thing spins off in the
> opposite direction.  The 'qtvr way' fails the principle of least
> surprise:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
>
> So for me click-and-hold doesn't work, I have the same problem with
> Acrobat reader and the Control Points tab in Hugin, which also zip
> off in the wrong direction every time I try and pan.
>

[Bruno Postle]

On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 14:59 -0700, Ken Warner wrote:

>Really, you can't figure it out even though you can describe
>exactly what's happening?  I find that amusing :-)

Nope, I try and use it as I expect it to work, then I remember that
it uses a baffling and awkward convention inherited from qtvr.

If you had a car where the steering wheel turned clockwise to go
left, I could cope, but it wouldn't make it right.

When steering wheels were introduced to ships, some countries had
wheels that turned left and some that turned right, but eventually
they settled on a standard - It is pretty clear to me what the
standard for panoramas is going to be.

--
Bruno

>On 7/16/2012 1:33 PM, Bruno Postle wrote:
>> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 15:04 +0200, Jeffrey S. Martin wrote:
>>>
>>> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
>>> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
>>
>> Since I don't have Flash installed or have a computer capable of
>> displaying html5 panoramas, I only occasionally encounter immersive
>> panoramas.
>>
>> So despite learning the 'qtvr way' many years ago, each time I try
>> and use one, I drag the image and the thing spins off in the
>> opposite direction.  The 'qtvr way' fails the principle of least
>> surprise:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
>>
>> So for me click-and-hold doesn't work, I have the same problem with
>> Acrobat reader and the Control Points tab in Hugin, which also zip
>> off in the wrong direction every time I try and pan.

[DemonDuck]

Well, it's not clear to me what the "standard" is going to be since there will be no "standard".  There will be two groups of people neither of which are right or wrong but each insisting that they are right.

As for myself, I can easily move back and forth between Google Maps and a 360 panorama that one pilots through space like an airplane.  Neither astonishes me.

The difference is a spatial orientation.  In a spherical panorama, you are inside the sphere. With Google Maps, you are outside the sphere.  Inside the sphere, you are a pilot of a little space craft that you turn with a stick like you turn an airplane.  Can you imagine what piloting an airplane would be like using the "move the world" paradigm of Google Maps?

At the same time, circling around a sphere (Google Maps) like a satellite, one can imagine moving the Earth to a new position with a different motion.

I don't think there will be one or the other.  I think both are going to be around for a long time and people will just get used to it in the same way they got used to WYSIWYG word processors after using line editors.

Because you find yourself "astonished" doesn't necessarily mean something is inherently astonishing.

On 7/16/2012 3:31 PM, Bruno Postle wrote:

> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 14:59 -0700, Ken Warner wrote:
>
>> Really, you can't figure it out even though you can describe
>> exactly what's happening?  I find that amusing :-)
>
> Nope, I try and use it as I expect it to work, then I remember that
> it uses a baffling and awkward convention inherited from qtvr.
>
> If you had a car where the steering wheel turned clockwise to go
> left, I could cope, but it wouldn't make it right.
>

Likewise, making my viewport move left by dragging right is also not right


> When steering wheels were introduced to ships, some countries had
> wheels that turned left and some that turned right, but eventually
> they settled on a standard - It is pretty clear to me what the
> standard for panoramas is going to be.
>

[Kathy Wheeler]

On 07/17/2012, at 9:03 AM, Ken Warner wrote:
> Well, it's not clear to me what the "standard" is going to be since there will be no "standard".

Well, it's long been said the "wonderful thing about *standards* is that there are so many to choose from" (warning, sarcasm).

> Inside the sphere, you are a pilot of a little space craft that you turn with a stick like you turn an airplane.  Can you imagine what piloting an airplane would be like using the "move the world" paradigm of Google Maps?

Makes me shudder just thinking about it - in my teens I used to fly gliders - with a stick not any sort of fancy wheel. Maybe that's why QTVR style seemed so natural to me ...

> At the same time, circling around a sphere (Google Maps) like a satellite, one can imagine moving the Earth to a new position with a different motion.

I personally find google maps actions jerky and tiresome with a mouse, although I could see how they would be more acceptable with touch sensitive screens (iPad etc).

However, we already have ways of detecting the user agent, screen and/or platform with javascript, or serving different instructions to various media with CSS. There should be ways to serve drag-n-drop to touch devices by default and switch it to qtvr-style default for mouse driven (desktops etc) and with a user selectable switch for "power users" to make their own decisions.

KathyW.

[DemonDuck]

Maybe someday Google will put such a switch on their maps and then we'll have two standards :-)

On 7/16/2012 6:13 PM, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

>
> On 07/17/2012, at 9:03 AM, Ken Warner wrote:
>> Well, it's not clear to me what the "standard" is going to be since there will be no "standard".
>
> Well, it's long been said the "wonderful thing about *standards* is that there are so many to choose from" (warning, sarcasm).
>
>> Inside the sphere, you are a pilot of a little space craft that you turn with a stick like you turn an airplane.  Can you imagine what piloting an airplane would be like using the "move the world" paradigm of Google Maps?
>
> Makes me shudder just thinking about it - in my teens I used to fly gliders - with a stick not any sort of fancy wheel. Maybe that's why QTVR style seemed so natural to me ...
>
>> At the same time, circling around a sphere (Google Maps) like a satellite, one can imagine moving the Earth to a new position with a different motion.
>
> I personally find google maps actions jerky and tiresome with a mouse, although I could see how they would be more acceptable with touch sensitive screens (iPad etc).
>
> However, we already have ways of detecting the user agent, screen and/or platform with javascript, or serving different instructions to various media with CSS. There should be ways to serve drag-n-drop to touch devices by default and switch it to qtvr-style default for mouse driven (desktops etc) and with a user selectable switch for "power users" to make their own decisions.
>
> KathyW.
>

[Hans-74]

--- In [hidden email], Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...> wrote:
 
> However, we already have ways of detecting the user agent, screen and/or platform with javascript, or serving different instructions to various media with CSS. There should be ways to serve drag-n-drop to touch devices by default and switch it to qtvr-style default for mouse driven (desktops etc) and with a user selectable switch for "power users" to make their own decisions.
>

That is already taken care of in most viewers today.

With KRpano you can set the controls as you want for the different devices.
If you would like to have standard moveto QTVR like movement for iPad, no problem to override the default drag function. Takes 10 sec to change the settiings for it.

Hans

[giant_klobasa_monster]

but who voted? who is "we", Ayrton?


--- In [hidden email], AYRTON <avi@...> wrote:
>

> Jeffrey, you should also say that :  the option with MORE votes was, and is
> : *keep  QTVR-style*
>
> Much more people still PREFER and voted for that,
> including me   :-)
>
> cheers
>
> AYRTON
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Roelof de Vries <https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>
> >
> > I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by
> > Google. In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the
> > standards for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and
> > inexperiences user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style
> > navigation. They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when
> > rotating the image.
> >
> > In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
> > panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
> > that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
> > time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
> > additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
> > I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
> > their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
> > navigate.
> > Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
> > the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
> > This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
> > click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
> > Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
> > navigation and want to stick to it.
> >
> > Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
> > through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
> > 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
> > you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
> > average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
> > a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
> > the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
> > at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
> > Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
> > like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
> > image.
> >
> > In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
> > break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
> > for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
> > the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
> > user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.
> >
> > Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
> > navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
> > it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
> > not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.
> >
> > It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
> > Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
> > that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
> > designer, this sounds strange to me...
> >
> > My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
> > menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
> > Jeffrey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[giant_klobasa_monster]

fiero, this is interesting. i think you are in the position to actually build this. could you possibly make a demo of this, showing what you mean?

it would be great to see it.

--- In [hidden email], "fierodeval" <fierodeval@...> wrote:

>
> I think the "Click-n-Drag" style of Google Streeview requires some improvements. For example, it could be better to capture the mouse cursor and move the image when the cursor is not over the panorama. Or maybe, a repositioning of the mouse cursor in the edges of the panorama window, this way the cursor never reach the limits of the screen (like DevalVR with manual movement).
>
> regards,
> fiero
>
>
>
>
> --- In [hidden email], Jeffrey Martin <panoramas@> wrote:
> >
> > https://www.facebook.com/groups/panoramicphotographers/permalink/436881739689276/
> >
> >
> > i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> > "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
> >
> > if you don't want to vote, at least let me quote the most persuasive
> > argument on the thread:
> >
> >
> > Roelof de Vries <https://www.facebook.com/roelofdevries80>
> >
> > I think that its time to make a switch to the 'new standard' set by Google.
> > In my opinion it's simple. I did quite some testing with both the standards
> > for navigation and the results are clear. Your average and inexperiences
> > user doesn't understand a thing when it comes to QTVR-style navigation.
> > They loose track, the get lost and they can get dizzy when rotating the
> > image.
> >
> > In the end you have to practice for some time before you can navigate in a
> > panorama and you 'have to understand' how the navigation works. The time
> > that you need before understanding click-drag is a few seconds where the
> > time for understanding and controlling QTVR-style can be 10 minutes with
> > additional explanation on how to control the panorama.
> > I've seen a lot of people get lost in the panorama when I was looking over
> > their shoulder, told them how to handle the panorama and help them to
> > navigate.
> > Also, I hear a lot of feedback from younger users who are telling me that
> > the QTVR-navigation 'goes the opposite way compared to what they expected'.
> > This is a clear sign for me. In the end, the majority of users expect a
> > click and drag function instead of a QTVR-function. Its just us 'Bad Ass
> > Panographers From The First Hour' who are used to the QTVR-style of
> > navigation and want to stick to it.
> >
> > Don't forget that we are the users with the most experience of navigating
> > through a panorama. In fact, we are the only users that know that there are
> > 2 different ways of navigation. We are also the only users who know that
> > you can switch by clicking a button or an option in the context-menu. An
> > average users doesnt have a clue what you're blabbering about when you have
> > a button that says 'Switch QTVR to Click-n-Drag'.
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned, I shoot panorama's for others so they can look at
> > the panorama, can be amazed by the panorama and have a good time by looking
> > at the panorama. I want to have the largest possible audience for my work.
> > Keeping that in mind, the choice depends on what the majority of users
> > like, what the majority of users needs to be able to take a look at the
> > image.
> >
> > In my opinion the first 5 seconds of a visit to a panorama can make it or
> > break it. That counts for a pro user and for someone who sees a panorama
> > for the first time. But, the big difference is that a firsttimer will leave
> > the panorama in the first 5 seconds when he cant control it. An experiences
> > user will search for the 'Pro Switch Button' when needed.
> >
> > Allthough I also think that the QTVR-style is a more esthetic style of
> > navigating a panorama, the Click-n-drag is a simpler way of navigation and
> > it has nothing to do with 'quality'. Its the image that makes the quality,
> > not the navigation. The navigation makes the user experience.
> >
> > It's only 'us panographers' who are making a big deal from this. We, Bad
> > Ass Panographers From The First Hour who are affraid of giving up the thing
> > that we're used to. I can tell you that, as an educated interaction
> > designer, this sounds strange to me...
> >
> > My website has the Click-n-drag by default with a switch in the context
> > menu. I've seen the stats go up, right after I made the switch.....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, please go and vote, if you want :-)
> > Jeffrey
> >
>

[giant_klobasa_monster]

Anyway, it has been a long time coming, but soon 360cities is going to (at some point in the next months, i don't know exactly when) switch the default nav mode to click/drag.

there will be a button to switch to qtvr mode. if you're an expert, you'll see this button, and can choose to use it. we'll remember your settings, so you'll have qtvr-style forever, if you want it that way.
 
--- In [hidden email], Bruno Postle <bruno@...> wrote:

>
> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 14:59 -0700, Ken Warner wrote:
>
> >Really, you can't figure it out even though you can describe
> >exactly what's happening?  I find that amusing :-)
>
> Nope, I try and use it as I expect it to work, then I remember that
> it uses a baffling and awkward convention inherited from qtvr.
>
> If you had a car where the steering wheel turned clockwise to go
> left, I could cope, but it wouldn't make it right.
>
> When steering wheels were introduced to ships, some countries had
> wheels that turned left and some that turned right, but eventually
> they settled on a standard - It is pretty clear to me what the
> standard for panoramas is going to be.
>
> --
> Bruno
>
> >On 7/16/2012 1:33 PM, Bruno Postle wrote:
> >> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 15:04 +0200, Jeffrey S. Martin wrote:
> >>>
> >>> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> >>> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
> >>
> >> Since I don't have Flash installed or have a computer capable of
> >> displaying html5 panoramas, I only occasionally encounter immersive
> >> panoramas.
> >>
> >> So despite learning the 'qtvr way' many years ago, each time I try
> >> and use one, I drag the image and the thing spins off in the
> >> opposite direction.  The 'qtvr way' fails the principle of least
> >> surprise:
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
> >>
> >> So for me click-and-hold doesn't work, I have the same problem with
> >> Acrobat reader and the Control Points tab in Hugin, which also zip
> >> off in the wrong direction every time I try and pan.
>

[texas360dave]

Pano2VR has had this type of click 'n drag function for a long long time.  If you are an expert.. just simply click to enable that function.  The only thing you are doing is while viewing the panorama making the option to change from one mouse function to another mouse function available.

--- In [hidden email], "prague" <panoramas@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Anyway, it has been a long time coming, but soon 360cities is going to (at some point in the next months, i don't know exactly when) switch the default nav mode to click/drag.
>
> there will be a button to switch to qtvr mode. if you're an expert, you'll see this button, and can choose to use it. we'll remember your settings, so you'll have qtvr-style forever, if you want it that way.
>  
> --- In [hidden email], Bruno Postle <bruno@> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 14:59 -0700, Ken Warner wrote:
> >
> > >Really, you can't figure it out even though you can describe
> > >exactly what's happening?  I find that amusing :-)
> >
> > Nope, I try and use it as I expect it to work, then I remember that
> > it uses a baffling and awkward convention inherited from qtvr.
> >
> > If you had a car where the steering wheel turned clockwise to go
> > left, I could cope, but it wouldn't make it right.
> >
> > When steering wheels were introduced to ships, some countries had
> > wheels that turned left and some that turned right, but eventually
> > they settled on a standard - It is pretty clear to me what the
> > standard for panoramas is going to be.
> >
> > --
> > Bruno
> >
> > >On 7/16/2012 1:33 PM, Bruno Postle wrote:
> > >> On Mon 16-Jul-2012 at 15:04 +0200, Jeffrey S. Martin wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> i made a poll about whether "we" should change our navigation mode from
> > >>> "qtvr style" to "click and drag"
> > >>
> > >> Since I don't have Flash installed or have a computer capable of
> > >> displaying html5 panoramas, I only occasionally encounter immersive
> > >> panoramas.
> > >>
> > >> So despite learning the 'qtvr way' many years ago, each time I try
> > >> and use one, I drag the image and the thing spins off in the
> > >> opposite direction.  The 'qtvr way' fails the principle of least
> > >> surprise:
> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
> > >>
> > >> So for me click-and-hold doesn't work, I have the same problem with
> > >> Acrobat reader and the Control Points tab in Hugin, which also zip
> > >> off in the wrong direction every time I try and pan.
> >
>